Move TimeMachine Backup from One Disk to Another (Ventura)

ZoeMacUser wrote:

I've read about five or six posts here and three articles on this, so please hear me out. None of that worked.

I want to move a set of existing TimeMachine (TM) backups from one physical disk to another. They're the same size, both external. The general directions I find are to pause backups, make the new drive a TM drive, then copy some file/directory from the old to the new (Backups.backupdb I believe).

That's where it breaks down. My old TM drive has a list of backups at the root level. It has no Backups.backupdb folder.

Not possible.

Start a new backup on the new drive.

ZoeMacUser wrote:

I've read about five or six posts here and three articles on this, so please hear me out. None of that worked.

Yes, because it is pretty much impossible, now.

That's where it breaks down. My old TM drive has a list of backups at the root level. It has no Backups.backupdb folder.

The Backups.backupd folder doesn't exist.

Each file in the root is a date and time and looks like a little TM drive.

Each backup is an APFS Snapshot, now. It is made on the source drive, copied to the backup, then reconciled with the previous snapshots.

Inside are the backed up files. When I select all of them and attempt to move them to the new drive, I cannot. I get a little circle/slash on the curser as I drag them, meaning "can't do that."

Can anyone shed any light, please, on why the instructions on the web don't apply here? Is there another way to move my TM backups?

The instructions on the web don't apply because they are wrong, now. You will not find an Apple article describing how to move TM backups to another drive because it is not possible. You can't move the individual files because they are part of a snapshot, not the actual files. You must use the Time Machine interface to "restore" them somewhere else.

I have not found a way to move them (but, I don't see a need so have never tried very hard).

I've used Time Machine for many years, and its most valuable feature for me was being able to retrieve previous versions of files. It's an excellent tool, as are many Apple products. That's why I'd like to be able to do this, too: migrate existing TM backup data to a new (always larger) disk.

Since that is now impossible, I've stopped using Time Machine, and now use Carbon Copy Cloner and other apps for all of my backup needs. All require a bit of learning (TM requires none to get started). But they do what I need, and are all faster at backing up large amounts of data (like a virtual machine system disk).

Sorry, Apple, you didn't think this one through.

I've used Time Machine for many years, and its most valuable feature for me was being able to retrieve previous versions of files. It's an excellent tool, as are many Apple products. That's why I'd like to be able to do this, too: migrate existing TM backup data to a new (always larger) disk.

Whether you want it, want it want it, or really want it really doesn't matter. It doesn't exist.

Sorry, Apple, you didn't think this one through.

Apple isn't here. Contact them if you want them to know.

However, it's the same as it ever was. You just thought you had an archival backup. It only ever guaranteed a duplicate of your current system. Sure, it kept older copies until it decided to remove them. Because you have no control of when those get removed, it is not and never has been an archival backup. You could sort of hope you caught it at the right time such that those files still existed, but there was never any guarantee.

CCC allows recovery of old versions of files with snapshots. This isn't as slick as TM, but it works well enough. I wasn't using it before, because TM did that very nicely, but given that TM has borked old versioning when you want to move to a larger disk, CCC is adequate.

I submitted feedback. Why did you assume that I didn't? I'm not holding my breath. I just wanted people who come to this topic to know that the way forward is not TM.

Regarding TM archival, it most certainly is an important feature. If "there's no guarantee", it's worthless. In fact, at any moment, you can see exactly how far back your TM snapshots go, and if you feel that you're at risk of losing old versions, you can migrate to a larger disk. You don't have to wait until TM starts removing old backups. At least you could.

As far as maintaining a duplicate of your current system for recovery in the event of system or machine crash, recovery of a TM backup is slow as molasses. CCC is warp speed better for that purpose.

Just to let you know: your tone is condescending and not appreciated. I've been using Macs since System 7 and have been a technology professional (designing hardware, software, and standards) for over fifty years. I've been in a couple of fairly deep problem-solving episodes with Apple engineers (some of whom I know personally), and they take my input seriously. I prefer to keep a small Internet footprint, so you won't see me with hundreds of thousands of points on any public discussion forum, and I don't plan for this to be one.

But thanks for the reminder to the world at large that a feedback channel exists. People may not believe this, but it gets read and often results in product changes (yes, Apple listens to its customers), but rarely generates a response. Such as if or why a migration capability for TM may never return (which we don't know to be a fact).

Such as if or why a migration capability for TM may never return (which we don't know to be a fact).

Nobody has figured out how to copy the snapshots, even Apple.

The only way that might be possible is to use the Restore tab in Disk Utility (or asr in the command line).

Perhaps you should try and let everyone know.

Barney-15E wrote:

Nobody has figured out how to copy the snapshots, even Apple.

The only way that might be possible is to use the Restore tab in Disk Utility (or asr in the command line).

Perhaps you should try and let everyone know.

That's a good suggestion, that I had tried (was the first thing I tried, in fact). It doesn't work - throws an error. I haven't dug into variations on that - restore from a TM backup volume that's still HFS+, or a volume that's not encrypted, etc.

But I also tried various other copy operations, like drag&drop in Finder, or mv, cp, rcopy, or dd commands. All give errors of some sort. Let's face it: there are plenty of smart, experienced people out there and if anything worked, it would've been reported by now. And if it worked and Apple didn't want it to work (because of recovery failures that it could cause, for example), they'd have locked it down (at least I'd hope that they would).

If Apple hasn't figured out how to copy TM snapshots, it's because it's hard. I'd be very surprised if they haven't already done a cost/benefit analysis to figure out whether to bring back this capability. But so far, they haven't told us. No word on whether it's permanently gone, whether they plan to retire TM and leave backup to third parties, or anything else. Par for the course at Apple (secrecy has advantages).

Anyway, TM for archival still works fine, it's just that its usefulness without migration is now more limited. If you think that you might need to depend on being able to retrieve a very old file, you'd better choose a very large disk for your initial backup - maybe four times the size of your system disk or larger.

There's another rumor that's been swirling around, for folks who haven't heard: provide full Mac backup on iCloud. iCloud storage prices might have to come down for that to be affordable, and it wouldn't be as fast as a local external SSD (at least not for a long time - still waiting on that famous 5G), but the size problem would presumably go away. We'll see what develops.

Anyway, TM for archival still works fine, it's just that its usefulness without migration is now more limited. If you think that you might need to depend on being able to retrieve a very old file, you'd better choose a very large disk for your initial backup - maybe four times the size of your system disk or larger.

Or, take your TM drive out of service before you run out of space. Start a new backup on a larger backup disk.

Yes, that will work, but it reduces the wonderful convenience of Time Machine somewhat (you might have to search through a couple of backup volumes to find the file that you're looking for).

Oh well, Apple knows that some people have wanted this. We'll see if it ever bubbles up to "work list for next release".

Be aware that Carbon Copy Cloner only has the latest backup. You can't go back in time to get an older file with CCC.

Be aware that Carbon Copy Cloner only has the latest backup.

Have you ever used CCC KOI?

You seem confused about its functionality.

I submitted feedback. I'm not holding my breath. I just wanted people who come to this topic to know that the way forward is not TM.

Don't know what KOI is. What I've used is just CCC to backup a folder on a regular basis and only get the latest version. Enlighten me on KOI if you would.

Enlighten me on KOI if you would.

It's a dictation artifact.