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Partial word match often broken after upgrading to Sequoia...

Hi,


Ever since I upgrades to Sequoia, search has been HORRIBLE. I posed another link about a huge number of missing items, which a ton of other people seemed to experience (Search broken after Sequoia upgrade - Apple Community) and I was able to figure that one out, but this is another search issue that I'm wondering if anyone else has or knows how to fix.


When I search on a partial word match, it will usually find the item but often doesn't. For example, if I have a file called ChristmasTreeNew.mpg and search on Tree, maybe it'll find it, maybe not. If not, and I search on ChristmasTree, or the full name, it will find it. This would indicate that it is present in the index, but the search just isn't finding it for some reason.


Also, the search will often take 5-10 seconds to run.


I have just had so many problems with Sequoia at the Finder level. I wish that I never upgraded.


Thanks.

MacBook Pro 16″

Posted on Nov 16, 2024 3:53 PM

Reply
9 replies

Nov 17, 2024 3:20 PM in response to farrelli

Thanks, but why then does it usually work but just sometimes fail?

I thought that's what I was explaining. Sometimes it may Match because it finds the search term as the start of a "word." If it can't "match" then it will fail. If you want name contains, you have to use the search criteria

If your searches should work based on my explanation, you may need to rebuild the Spotlight Index.

Rebuild the Spotlight index on your Mac - Apple Support


Given that, I created various forms of "ChristmasTreeNew" and all of them were found with the search field and either Matches or Contains.

I have always named files with a string of words with no spaces and search always has found them, even if I just search on one of the words anywhere in the name. Now, in Sequoia, it will usually work, but not always.

The change from "name contains" to "name matches" has recently occurred, but it was before Sequoia.

I used to run a huge ECM system and if this was happening there, I would have been immediately on the phone with the vendor explaining that there's something wrong with the search function of their app because the object is clearly in the index but isn't being found by search.

The only thing I know about ECM is Electronic Countermeasures. Ours often failed in that it didn't work as we expected. If you trusted it to work, you'd likely die. I'm not sure why either story is relevant to the problem.

I have no idea about how Mac does things

That's why I spent the time to explain how the Search works.



Nov 19, 2024 12:24 AM in response to Barney-15E

OK, here's an example. I actually wanted to give one earlier but blanked on any of the examples that I had experienced.


If I search on "jeff", you will see that I have four vids that also contain the word "Vermont" in the name of the file:



But if I search on "vermont", the search only returns two of them:



This is why I think something is broken. I cannot see why this would happen else-wise. For most such searches, it finds all relevant returns and does not skip any, with all having essentially the same name scheme. It's just that some searches fail to return all the items that it should return. But if I search on the full name of a file which was omitted in a previous result, it finds it, so it is clearly available in the index.


Oh, and I looked at Comments and such, and all of these files have no metadata that has "Vermont" in it. For all of these files, the only "jeff" or "vermont" is in the file name. There's not even any text in the vids that would be detectable, if somehow Macs could do that.


Thanks.

Nov 17, 2024 4:40 AM in response to farrelli

There are two name searches, Contains and Matches. Contains should find “Tree” inside the string.

Matches will find “words” in a string that match the search term.

Apple Software Engineers apparently don’t talk to each other because when you search in Finder, it offers “Name contains ‘Tree’.” However, the search performed is actually “Name Matches ‘Tree’.”


”word” in the search context is any separation that partitions the string into parts such as spaces, underscore or other symbols, numbers, punctuation, etc.

Camel case does not partition a string into “words.”


To actually get a Name contains search, you have to drop into the advanced criteria by clicking the + or start with cmd-f.

Nov 17, 2024 11:41 AM in response to Barney-15E

Thanks, but why then does it usually work but just sometimes fail? I have always named files with a string of words with no spaces and search always has found them, even if I just search on one of the words anywhere in the name. Now, in Sequoia, it will usually work, but not always.


I used to run a huge ECM system and if this was happening there, I would have been immediately on the phone with the vendor explaining that there's something wrong with the search function of their app because the object is clearly in the index but isn't being found by search. I have no idea about how Mac does things though so I can't even begin to guess if there are multiple indexes and if one of them is damaged, or if there is some kind of search federator problem, etc. Moreover, the fact that search can sometimes take 5-10 seconds to run on an M2 MBP which is severely underutilized is another indicator of search problems. All I know is that since upgrading to Sequoia, I've had all kinds of search problems. I'm thinking of trying another reindex.

Nov 18, 2024 10:19 AM in response to Barney-15E

ECM = Enterprise Content Management


There are several such as Microsoft SharePoint, or in my case, Opentext Content Server (AKA, Livelink). Actually, I worked with both, but mostly Opentext. With some ECMs, such as Sharepoint, search is functional but not particularly robust and configurable. With Opentext, the search/indexing is quite robust and configurable. Up until recently, I ran several of these systems for over 20 years in a pretty large environment, with god only knows how many million docs of just about every possible file type. I was pretty knowledgable about the indexing and search functions, so it is now frustrating for me to be trying to figure out the Mac search, which is doubtlessly much simpler but, as far as I can tell, not exactly well documented.


Thank you for your detailed reply and testing, but I still am confused. I get how to do complex search queries but you seem to be indicating that the search isn't broken and I don't understand how that can be true given that, as far as I can tell, there is no rhyme or reason to what I see. Most of the time, if I just type a word/string into the search box in the top right of a finder window, it will find that word/string pretty much anywhere, ranging from the Comments of a file, to its name, to metadata, and everything in between. Doubtlessly they are all indexed as separate regions, which is why the detailed search can break them down in the more focused search. It almost always works fine on a partial string match. It might not find "tree" in ChristmasTreeNew.jpg, at the same time it will find "Mac" in RetiredMacStack.jpg (all case insensitive). It almost always will find the docs I'm looking for, it just sometimes doesn't. I could understand if the item was missing from the index, but because it will find it if I search on the fuller name, starting from the beginning, it is clearly in the index. For lack of proper terminology, the name field seems to be intact in the index, so if it were my old ECM system, I would be pretty certain that the problem is with the search function, basically some bug where it doesn't always fully read the name field.

Nov 18, 2024 12:16 PM in response to farrelli

… but you seem to be indicating that the search isn't broken and I don't understand how that can be true given that, as far as I can tell, there is no rhyme or reason to what I see.

Perhaps you could post screenshot examples as i have done.


Most of the time, if I just type a word/string into the search box in the top right of a finder window, it will find that word/string pretty much anywhere, ranging from the Comments of a file, to its name, to metadata, and everything in between.

That’s what it is supposed to do. if you want to limit to some category, you choose the appropriate search token offered in the popup menu (or enter them as VikingOSX noted).

, basically some bug where it doesn't always fully read the name field.

The search doesn’t read any part of the file. The index created associates terms with a pointer to the file.

Nov 19, 2024 6:18 PM in response to farrelli

I copied all of the file names into a folder and searched from the parent of that folder.

I found all four with both jeff and vermont.


You may have something broken. Did you rebuild the Spotlight index?


Music and Video have tags associated with them. When you looked at metadata, did you use mdls in Terminal or just Get Info/Preview in Finder?

Partial word match often broken after upgrading to Sequoia...

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